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Downloaded from
YTS.BZ

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But I reported...

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what I saw.

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.BZ

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<i>Professor Karski, you know
that the subject of this film</i>

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<i>is the destruction of the European Jews,</i>

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<i>the Holocaust.</i>

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<i>I would like to know,
among all the official political leaders</i>

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<i>to whom you delivered your report,</i>

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<i>did you have the chance to mention</i>

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<i>specifically the Jewish problem?</i>

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<i>I would like to know what were
the possibilities for you to talk about this</i>

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<i>and who was interested,
how they were interested.</i>

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- I understand.
<i>- How they reacted.</i>

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So now, I understand the subject
of this film

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that you are making is...
you hope it will be shown eventually.

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Probably the second part.

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You want to have testimonies,
interviews for historical records.

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Let's say for some archives.

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So now... So I understand
I must be very precise

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and now I am asking you

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to bear with me and to understand

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my possibilities and my mission
in the so-called Western free world.

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Dealing with the Polish
government leaders,

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political leaders,
Polish Jewish leaders.

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Because of the nature of my mission,

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I travelled, as you know,
several times.

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Because within the statute
of my mission,

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I was going back to Poland.

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I was a very important man.
I was a hero.

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Everything was at my disposal.

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I met the most important men.

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They catered to me.

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I could...

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To whomever I spoke,

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I could tell them,
"I didn't finish. I have more to say."

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On many occasions,

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I had such a situation

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with General Sikorski,
whom I saw at least five times.

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"General, I didn't finish yet."

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He would say, "Lieutenant...

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"my secretary will inform you
when I will be free for you."

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So with the Polish side of my mission,

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I had great possibilities to report.

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And I did report.

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Now, you are asking me

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the second part of my report.

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We have to make a distinction

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with the English or American

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certain political leaders,
like Jewish leaders...

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Oh, yes, they listened to me.

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They let me report.

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With those great intellectual leaders,

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poets, writers, et cetera,

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well, frankly, I felt free.

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And I would, so to say, press myself.

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"Still there is more.
Still I want you to know more."

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H G Wells, Koestler,
these kind of people.

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Now...

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speaking about government leaders

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in Great Britain and the United States

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I met all of them

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as a result of the Polish government,

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usually the prime minister's,

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request.

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In London,
the prime minister asked them

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to see some recently arrived agent
from the Polish Underground,

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his report might be of interest

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to His Majesty's government

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or to that particular minister,

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or government leader.

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In the United States,
it was the ambassador, of course.

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Everything was in his hands.

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Now, you must realise,
at that time,

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I was not allowed to have any contact.

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I had to report to the proper offices

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every man I met.

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I was free to go to a theatre,
to a nightclub, to dinner.

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I had plenty of money, of course,
to buy myself new clothes, whatsoever.

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I could not have contacts
on my own initiative.

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Only as instructed.

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"You are going to see
such-and-such a leader."

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The same in the United States,
of course. I lived in the embassy.

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I was not allowed to live
in any hotel.

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I lived all the time on the premises.

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<i>And how did it happen
with Roosevelt?</i>

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With President Roosevelt...

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I must.. Well...

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The Polish ambassador in Washington

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was informed about my existence
in London.

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Before coming to London,

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I didn't expect to go to the United States.

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Now, it was the Polish ambassador,

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who in his reports
to the prime minister suggested

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he thinks that it may be useful

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if, before returning to Poland,

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Karski will come secretly
to the United States.

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The ambassador is pretty sure

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he will get him in touch

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with key members of the government
and the proper people.

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He hopes the president himself

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will be interested in his report.

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Once we received this report,
General Sikorski tells me,

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"Lieutenant, you go to Washington
before you go to Poland."

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I arrived in Washington.

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Ambassador Ciechanowski was already
totally acquainted with my material.

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I stayed at the embassy.

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As you can imagine,
every morning, every evening,

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we talk about
what happened in Poland.

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The most, by the way, intimate talks

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were when there was
a sort of a ritual in the evening

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after dinner, before going to bed,

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the ambassador would walk his dog,
Groszek.

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I would walk with the ambassador.

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He always invited me,
"Johnny, come with me."

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Then we would again.
Most intimate.

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Even Madam Ciechanowska...

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She may see this film.
She lives now in Belgium.

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Even she was not present.

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And then sometimes,
his worries and his fears and all this.

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At a certain point, he tells me,

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"Johnny, listen...

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"The president of the United States
wishes to see you."

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Now he briefs me.

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As a matter of fact,

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all the time he was criticising me
on one point.

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Mainly, "Johnny, you are inclined
to talk too much.

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"You must acquire precision.
You have precision.

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"To be concise. You realise people
I am going to introduce you to,

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"they are the most powerful people.

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"Poland is a minor concern for them.

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"They have the whole war.
They wage this war.

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"So be careful.

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"Concise, precision.

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"Concentrate rather
on their questions.

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"Try to answer their questions."

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The President comes.

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He gives me the same briefing,
"Now, you be careful.

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"You are going to see the most
powerful man on this globe.

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"This man evidently is busy.

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"He thinks in terms...

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"of the war, of humanity."

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Roosevelt had this inclination,

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about which Ambassador Ciechanowski
instructed me.

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"We have a president.
He thinks in terms...

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"He thinks after this war

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"the human race

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"will be organised in such a way,
no more wars.

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"And he will play the key role
in this arrangement.

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"So now, again, be brief.
Be concise.

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"I am not going to take part
in the conversation.

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"I will go with you,

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"as required by diplomatic protocol.

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"I have to certify your veracity,

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"introduce you to the president.

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"Then I will sit quiet.

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"So don't rely on me.

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"I will be unable to help you
in any way.

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"It may be that the president
will ask me a question.

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"Then I will answer his question.

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"So I don't know
how the conversation will develop.

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"I don't know how long
you will stay with the president.

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"Only you are on your own,
and now be wise."

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With this kind of briefing,

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limousine, whatsoever,
brings us to the White House.

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Ambassador punctual,
president punctual.

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The Secretary leads me to his office.

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I see Roosevelt.

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He looked like a world leader.

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- Like a world leader?
- World leader. Yes.

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As a matter of fact, he struck me

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that he was more than
the President of the United States.

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His formulations, his gestures.

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He did consider himself
a world leader.

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He sits behind his desk.

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Behind him, of course,
all American flags!

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You know, very impressive.
The whole wall covered by them.

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Very high chair.

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<i>Grand seigneur.</i>

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Of course, I was warned he will not
get up when he shakes your hand.

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He is crippled.

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He shakes hands.

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"Please sit down.
Mr Ambassador."

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He says, "Mr Karski...

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"I know about you.

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"I have been informed

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"about your great work contribution

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"to the Allied cause.

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"I am sure

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"that you would like me
to be informed

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"about things in Poland.

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"Please..."

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Now, you see,

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I realised as I heard it,
throughout my entire mission,

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for me the Jewish problem
was not the only problem.

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For me,
the key problem was... Poland.

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Curzon Line.

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Soviet demands.

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Communists
in the underground movement.

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Fear of the Polish nation.

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"What is going to happen
to Poland?"

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This was the emphasis.

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<i>Of your mission?</i>

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Yes. Of my mission, of course.
And my concern, naturally.

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I speak to the President in those terms.

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Expectations.
Fears among the leaders.

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"All hope, Mr President,

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"has been placed by the Polish nations

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"in the hands
of Franklin Delano Roosevelt."

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<i>- You said this?</i>
- Oh, yes.

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<i>- In proper words?</i>
- Oh, yes, in the same words.

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Not "The President,"
"Franklin Delano Roosevelt."

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He sits.

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I describe,
thinking how much time I have.

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He sits.

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00:19:14,524 --> 00:19:17,293
Then I come to the Jewish problem.

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"Mr President,

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"before having left Poland,

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"I was charged with this mission

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"by the most important Jewish leaders.

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"They organised for me
two visits in the ghetto.

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"I saw an extermination camp.

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00:19:44,721 --> 00:19:46,823
"The name is Belzec.

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00:19:46,923 --> 00:19:50,560
"B-E-L-Z-E-C.

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00:19:52,862 --> 00:19:54,931
"Mr President,

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"the situation is horrible.

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"The point is,

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"without the outside help,

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"the Jews will perish in Poland."

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He enters.

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I remember every second
of this conversation.

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- "The Allied nations..."
<i>- Excuse me. Excuse me.</i>

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00:20:21,758 --> 00:20:26,362
<i>- What did he answer specifically?</i>
- Nothing. He enters the picture now.

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00:20:26,463 --> 00:20:28,932
- Nothing.
<i>- This was the end of your report?</i>

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00:20:29,232 --> 00:20:30,500
Yes.

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- Nothing.
<i>- It came at the end, the Jewish...?</i>

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I never had the chance.

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So now his answer:

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"The Allied nations are going
to win this war.

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"No more wars.

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00:20:49,886 --> 00:20:52,956
"Justice will be done.

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00:20:53,923 --> 00:20:57,961
"Your country will be alive again

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"more prosperous than before.

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00:21:01,531 --> 00:21:04,934
"Criminals will be punished.

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"The United States will not
abandon your country."

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00:21:12,976 --> 00:21:16,479
As a matter of fact, now he says,

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00:21:20,350 --> 00:21:25,054
"Poland, as compensation,

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"will receive East Prussia

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"or a part of East Prussia.

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00:21:35,431 --> 00:21:37,667
"No more Corridor."

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00:21:38,835 --> 00:21:40,403
And now to the ambassador,

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00:21:40,503 --> 00:21:43,907
"Mr Ambassador,
what do you think about it?"

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00:21:44,007 --> 00:21:45,942
Of course,
Mr Ambassador loves it,

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only he wants all of East Prussia,
not part of East Prussia.

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00:21:51,347 --> 00:21:54,751
Short conversation over there.

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00:21:58,054 --> 00:22:01,591
Then: "When you return to Poland,

257
00:22:01,691 --> 00:22:05,495
"you will tell your Polish leaders

258
00:22:05,595 --> 00:22:09,365
"this country will never fail them.

259
00:22:10,934 --> 00:22:13,736
"They have a friend

260
00:22:13,837 --> 00:22:18,508
"in the President of the United States."

261
00:22:19,075 --> 00:22:22,745
And now he does ask me questions.
Oh, yes.

262
00:22:22,846 --> 00:22:24,981
Underground movement.

263
00:22:27,050 --> 00:22:29,619
Do you know what question
he asked me?

264
00:22:31,020 --> 00:22:35,425
"Do I understand correctly,
young man'

265
00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:39,028
"that before the war,

266
00:22:39,128 --> 00:22:43,566
"Poland was essentially
an agricultural country?"

267
00:22:44,634 --> 00:22:48,504
"Yes, Mr President, it was so."

268
00:22:50,039 --> 00:22:54,944
"Well, now, what we understand,
in the Russian campaign,

269
00:22:55,044 --> 00:23:01,718
"Germans had to use
a tremendous amount of horses.

270
00:23:02,986 --> 00:23:07,490
"Did they take those horses
from Poland?

271
00:23:07,590 --> 00:23:12,962
"Because with your
agricultural economy,

272
00:23:13,062 --> 00:23:15,632
"you need horses."

273
00:23:15,732 --> 00:23:17,634
"Mr President...

274
00:23:20,436 --> 00:23:21,905
"Yes..."

275
00:23:25,074 --> 00:23:27,076
He asked me other questions.

276
00:23:27,176 --> 00:23:33,616
I had no chance,
except in my initial statement,

277
00:23:33,716 --> 00:23:35,685
to say,
"Mr President, listen to me."

278
00:23:35,785 --> 00:23:40,089
Well, you don't speak to
the President of the United States.

279
00:23:40,189 --> 00:23:45,561
No Jewish problem was mentioned
until the end of the conversation,

280
00:23:45,662 --> 00:23:48,064
which lasted one hour, 20 minutes.

281
00:23:48,164 --> 00:23:52,602
<i>But excuse me to insist,
but it is my theme.</i>

282
00:23:52,702 --> 00:23:55,471
<i>About the Jews,
did he ask specific questions?</i>

283
00:23:55,571 --> 00:23:56,706
No.

284
00:23:56,806 --> 00:23:58,675
<i>- No one?</i>
- No. Not a single one.

285
00:23:58,775 --> 00:24:00,677
<i>- Not a single one?</i>
- Not a single one.

286
00:24:00,777 --> 00:24:05,448
What I said,
I said only on my initiative

287
00:24:05,548 --> 00:24:07,583
as an opening statement.

288
00:24:07,684 --> 00:24:10,019
When he asked me,

289
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:15,959
"I presume you want
to pass certain information,

290
00:24:16,059 --> 00:24:17,593
"bring attention..."

291
00:24:17,694 --> 00:24:20,730
<i>Okay. You gave everything
on the Jews at the end?</i>

292
00:24:20,830 --> 00:24:22,865
General terms. I saw the ghettos.

293
00:24:22,966 --> 00:24:24,767
<i>But he didn't ask one specific question.</i>

294
00:24:24,867 --> 00:24:26,135
Not a single one.

295
00:24:26,235 --> 00:24:28,471
<i>And how do you explain this?</i>

296
00:24:28,571 --> 00:24:29,973
I don't...

297
00:24:30,573 --> 00:24:32,008
He did make a gesture.

298
00:24:32,108 --> 00:24:35,979
Now, what was the significance
of this gesture?

299
00:24:36,079 --> 00:24:41,851
Was it a gesture or was it
an expression of goodwill

300
00:24:41,951 --> 00:24:44,587
of the centre of power,

301
00:24:44,687 --> 00:24:48,658
who does not deal
with particular problems?

302
00:24:48,758 --> 00:24:50,827
I don't know until today.

303
00:24:50,927 --> 00:24:52,729
<i>With minor problems?</i>

304
00:24:52,829 --> 00:24:57,200
Wiser people than I
could not decipher F D R.

305
00:24:58,668 --> 00:25:02,205
He was a great man mainly.

306
00:25:02,505 --> 00:25:06,843
After we left the White House...

307
00:25:06,943 --> 00:25:11,714
And then, of course, as you can imagine,
we returned to the embassy.

308
00:25:11,814 --> 00:25:16,152
And the ambassador gives me
one typist.

309
00:25:16,252 --> 00:25:18,888
He goes to another room,
another typist.

310
00:25:18,988 --> 00:25:20,757
And his instructions:

311
00:25:20,857 --> 00:25:23,893
"Now you write your report.
I write my report.

312
00:25:23,993 --> 00:25:25,728
"Johnny, be careful.

313
00:25:25,828 --> 00:25:28,531
"Everything counted.

314
00:25:28,631 --> 00:25:33,102
"If you noticed his smile,
put it in the report.

315
00:25:33,202 --> 00:25:37,907
"We just saw the centre of power
of humanity.

316
00:25:38,007 --> 00:25:40,543
"And then we will compare
both our reports.

317
00:25:40,643 --> 00:25:42,311
"I have to send a report to London."

318
00:25:42,612 --> 00:25:44,280
Of course.

319
00:25:44,580 --> 00:25:47,316
So we cooked up whatever it was.

320
00:25:47,617 --> 00:25:49,252
Then comes the problem.

321
00:25:50,153 --> 00:25:53,189
I think it was next day. Very soon.

322
00:25:54,557 --> 00:25:58,694
It might be even the same evening,
as a matter of fact.

323
00:25:58,795 --> 00:26:00,663
He sees me, the ambassador,

324
00:26:00,763 --> 00:26:03,633
and says, "Well, Johnny,

325
00:26:03,733 --> 00:26:08,638
"now I got from the White House

326
00:26:10,039 --> 00:26:11,874
"a message.

327
00:26:11,974 --> 00:26:16,312
"Apparently, the president

328
00:26:16,612 --> 00:26:23,019
"would like you to see
the following individuals.

329
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:30,259
"And he wants you to pass to them
all your reports."

330
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:35,731
Now, on that list...
It was a long list.

331
00:26:36,699 --> 00:26:38,968
Some individuals, for instance...

332
00:26:39,068 --> 00:26:42,105
Oh, yes, there was Rabbi Wise,

333
00:26:42,205 --> 00:26:44,340
whom I saw already, by the way,

334
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,209
Goldman,

335
00:26:47,910 --> 00:26:49,812
Waldman, I remember.

336
00:26:49,912 --> 00:26:55,384
As a matter of fact, a certain
Jesuit priest, Father Walsh.

337
00:26:55,685 --> 00:26:59,622
<i>Oh, there was
a Supreme Court justice.</i>

338
00:27:01,124 --> 00:27:03,292
<i>- Frankfurter.</i>
- Justice, yes.

339
00:27:03,392 --> 00:27:04,961
Justice Frankfurter.

340
00:27:05,061 --> 00:27:08,631
I saw him on the recommendation
of President Roosevelt.

341
00:27:08,731 --> 00:27:13,302
But there were names:
Secretary of War Stimson,

342
00:27:13,402 --> 00:27:17,039
Secretary of State Cordell Hull,

343
00:27:19,208 --> 00:27:21,711
Archbishop Spellman,

344
00:27:21,811 --> 00:27:24,113
Archbishop Mooney, Mooney,

345
00:27:24,213 --> 00:27:26,983
Archbishop Stritch,

346
00:27:27,083 --> 00:27:32,421
the apostolic delegate, Cicognani.

347
00:27:32,722 --> 00:27:34,423
<i>The delegate from the pope.</i>

348
00:27:34,724 --> 00:27:37,126
The apostolic delegate from the pope.

349
00:27:37,226 --> 00:27:43,833
Now, I interpreted this,
and the ambassador,

350
00:27:43,933 --> 00:27:49,839
that the president was interested
in the Jewish problem.

351
00:27:49,939 --> 00:27:54,143
Only, on his level,

352
00:27:55,978 --> 00:28:02,118
the problem was not directly,
so to say, in his jurisdiction.

353
00:28:02,218 --> 00:28:05,988
He sent me to the people

354
00:28:06,088 --> 00:28:11,194
whom he considered
actually could take some action,

355
00:28:11,294 --> 00:28:17,733
knowing that I was sent to them
on his recommendation.

356
00:28:17,833 --> 00:28:19,435
It might have been also...

357
00:28:19,735 --> 00:28:26,275
<i>Did you feel yourself
the tragic discrepancy</i>

358
00:28:26,375 --> 00:28:30,213
<i>between the demands
and the expectations,</i>

359
00:28:30,313 --> 00:28:33,015
<i>hopeless expectations
of the people in Warsaw,</i>

360
00:28:33,115 --> 00:28:35,284
<i>I mean the Jews that you met,</i>

361
00:28:35,384 --> 00:28:38,120
<i>and this result, this visit?</i>

362
00:28:39,288 --> 00:28:42,391
<i>- Because there is no communication.</i>
- I understand.

363
00:28:42,491 --> 00:28:45,061
History passed.
Thirty-five years passed.

364
00:28:45,161 --> 00:28:50,099
So I understand your film.
Your archives, film archives.

365
00:28:52,235 --> 00:28:55,905
After my audience
with President Roosevelt,

366
00:28:56,005 --> 00:29:00,476
I was so overwhelmed by this fact.

367
00:29:00,776 --> 00:29:05,214
I reported to the President
of the United States.

368
00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:09,218
I didn't think about anything else,

369
00:29:09,318 --> 00:29:12,021
I was totally overwhelmed by him.

370
00:29:13,256 --> 00:29:17,827
Years passed, and of course,
now I think about it.

371
00:29:17,927 --> 00:29:22,298
What was the significance?
And I don't have the answer.

372
00:29:22,398 --> 00:29:27,470
Perhaps he wanted, expected,
others to do.

373
00:29:27,770 --> 00:29:30,172
Perhaps they did do things.

374
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:37,013
None of the Allied leaders,
on the level as I met them,

375
00:29:37,113 --> 00:29:39,915
would tell me
what he was going to do.

376
00:29:40,016 --> 00:29:41,384
You understand?

377
00:29:42,418 --> 00:29:45,087
A few days later,

378
00:29:45,187 --> 00:29:47,423
the ambassador tells me,

379
00:29:47,523 --> 00:29:54,897
"Johnny, now you are going
to see Justice Frankfurter.

380
00:29:56,465 --> 00:29:58,434
"He will come here."

381
00:29:58,534 --> 00:30:01,370
<i>Justice Frankfurter was a member
of the Supreme Court?</i>

382
00:30:01,470 --> 00:30:04,273
Of the Supreme Court.

383
00:30:04,373 --> 00:30:07,243
Now, again,
he gave me his briefing.

384
00:30:07,343 --> 00:30:11,013
<i>- "He will come here, " he said?</i>
- "He will come here."

385
00:30:11,113 --> 00:30:15,084
As a matter of fact,
except cabinet members,

386
00:30:15,184 --> 00:30:18,354
usually people came to the embassy.

387
00:30:18,454 --> 00:30:20,456
- I lived in the embassy.
<i>- Okay.</i>

388
00:30:20,556 --> 00:30:22,992
So, "He will come here."

389
00:30:23,092 --> 00:30:25,328
Now, he gave me his briefing:

390
00:30:25,428 --> 00:30:27,963
"Now, Johnny, again, be careful."

391
00:30:28,064 --> 00:30:30,166
He always would brief me.

392
00:30:30,266 --> 00:30:36,539
"Now, all knowledgeable people
consider this man

393
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,111
"the most brilliant man
in the administration.

394
00:30:43,145 --> 00:30:46,615
"As a justice of the Supreme Court...

395
00:30:48,017 --> 00:30:52,521
"The institution is very important,
but next,

396
00:30:52,621 --> 00:30:59,395
"for years he is a confidant
of the president.

397
00:30:59,495 --> 00:31:01,864
"All America knows about it."

398
00:31:01,964 --> 00:31:03,466
<i>And he was a Jew?</i>

399
00:31:03,566 --> 00:31:08,270
Now, he says,
"Johnny, now, he is a Jew.

400
00:31:10,272 --> 00:31:16,011
"So, be sure he will be interested
in your report."

401
00:31:16,112 --> 00:31:19,014
All right, so, I wait again, carefully.

402
00:31:20,116 --> 00:31:22,118
On the appointed hour...

403
00:31:22,218 --> 00:31:26,188
As a matter of fact, I even remember
it was between breakfast and lunch.

404
00:31:26,288 --> 00:31:29,225
Before lunch, in the morning hours.

405
00:31:30,626 --> 00:31:32,161
On time.

406
00:31:33,262 --> 00:31:37,333
I was sitting in the living room, salon.

407
00:31:37,433 --> 00:31:42,671
Ambassador comes from the first floor

408
00:31:43,539 --> 00:31:45,941
with Justice Frankfurter.

409
00:31:47,510 --> 00:31:49,512
Justice Frankfurter...

410
00:31:51,213 --> 00:31:52,982
A little man.

411
00:31:54,417 --> 00:31:59,922
He did emanate... some brilliance.

412
00:32:00,456 --> 00:32:03,592
Very alive, his eyes.

413
00:32:03,692 --> 00:32:06,695
Unimpressive physically.

414
00:32:06,996 --> 00:32:09,598
A little man, Jewish-looking.

415
00:32:11,934 --> 00:32:14,670
Very friendly. Friendly smile.

416
00:32:17,239 --> 00:32:20,042
Towards me, all the time friendly.

417
00:32:20,142 --> 00:32:23,512
Several times,
he called me "young man"

418
00:32:23,612 --> 00:32:26,282
during our conversation.

419
00:32:26,382 --> 00:32:30,352
Well, I introduce myself.
We sit down.

420
00:32:30,453 --> 00:32:35,558
He in front of me.
Ciechanowski on my left.

421
00:32:36,525 --> 00:32:40,563
Justice Frankfurter starts,
"Mr Karski...

422
00:32:42,465 --> 00:32:48,037
"I have been invited
by my very good friend,

423
00:32:49,004 --> 00:32:50,606
"your ambassador,

424
00:32:50,706 --> 00:32:54,443
"to come here to see you.

425
00:32:56,178 --> 00:33:00,149
"I was also advised

426
00:33:00,249 --> 00:33:03,986
"that I should see you.

427
00:33:06,755 --> 00:33:10,759
"Apparently,
you have some information

428
00:33:11,060 --> 00:33:13,295
"which I should know.

429
00:33:16,432 --> 00:33:19,768
"What do you have to say?"

430
00:33:22,238 --> 00:33:24,340
My answer:

431
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,041
"Sir...

432
00:33:27,343 --> 00:33:30,613
"I don't know
what you are interested in.

433
00:33:31,647 --> 00:33:34,550
"Could you ask me some questions?

434
00:33:34,650 --> 00:33:37,520
"It will be easier on me."

435
00:33:37,620 --> 00:33:39,288
Frankfurter:

436
00:33:40,589 --> 00:33:42,224
"Young man...

437
00:33:44,159 --> 00:33:48,264
"Do you know that I am a Jew?"

438
00:33:51,066 --> 00:33:56,805
"Yes, sir. Mr Ambassador told me
about this."

439
00:33:58,140 --> 00:34:01,510
"Well, tell me about the Jews.

440
00:34:04,179 --> 00:34:06,749
"We have here many reports.

441
00:34:07,049 --> 00:34:13,122
"What happens to the Jews
in your country?"

442
00:34:15,824 --> 00:34:18,827
Now I become a machine again.

443
00:34:19,128 --> 00:34:21,463
I give my stuff.

444
00:34:23,732 --> 00:34:25,534
The man sits.

445
00:34:27,836 --> 00:34:33,576
I remember,
he looked like smaller and smaller.

446
00:34:35,110 --> 00:34:39,148
Somehow this, like curving.

447
00:34:39,248 --> 00:34:41,317
Looking at the floor.

448
00:34:42,484 --> 00:34:45,421
But he listens.
He doesn't interrupt me.

449
00:34:48,357 --> 00:34:50,459
I report, as you know from this film.

450
00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:54,263
Usually it lasted 15, 20 minutes.

451
00:34:54,763 --> 00:34:59,468
I tell him:
Jewish leaders, ghetto, Belzec.

452
00:35:01,370 --> 00:35:08,243
Well, those 15, 20 minutes passed,
and I stopped.

453
00:35:11,180 --> 00:35:15,150
Now, Justice Frankfurter, he sits,

454
00:35:16,685 --> 00:35:19,288
looks at me still at this moment,

455
00:35:20,856 --> 00:35:23,225
and tells me the following:

456
00:35:23,325 --> 00:35:24,627
"Young man...

457
00:35:26,495 --> 00:35:33,702
"as I mentioned, I have been
informed about your activities.

458
00:35:33,802 --> 00:35:38,507
"I was told that you came out of hell.

459
00:35:39,808 --> 00:35:44,380
"And I was told that
you are going back to hell.

460
00:35:46,782 --> 00:35:49,818
"I have admiration for people like you."

461
00:35:54,490 --> 00:35:55,758
And now...

462
00:35:58,827 --> 00:36:00,529
"Young man...

463
00:36:01,930 --> 00:36:04,767
"I am no longer young.

464
00:36:06,502 --> 00:36:08,837
"I am a judge of men.

465
00:36:11,273 --> 00:36:13,275
"Men like me

466
00:36:15,511 --> 00:36:18,447
"with a man like you

467
00:36:19,715 --> 00:36:21,917
"must be totally honest.

468
00:36:25,888 --> 00:36:29,591
"And I am telling you,

469
00:36:29,692 --> 00:36:31,927
"I do not believe you!"

470
00:36:35,597 --> 00:36:39,702
Ciechanowski breaks in,
"Felix! What are you talking about?

471
00:36:40,836 --> 00:36:44,606
"Well, you know about him.
He comes... he saw the president.

472
00:36:44,707 --> 00:36:48,711
"He was checked, rechecked.
Ten times, in England, here.

473
00:36:48,811 --> 00:36:52,247
"Felix, what...? He's not lying!"

474
00:36:53,515 --> 00:36:56,318
Frankfurter is walking like this.

475
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,390
"Mr Ambassador..."
Formal.

476
00:37:02,491 --> 00:37:06,929
"I did not say that he is lying.

477
00:37:08,697 --> 00:37:12,968
"I said that I don't believe him.

478
00:37:14,603 --> 00:37:16,472
"These are different things."

479
00:37:19,408 --> 00:37:22,978
And: "My mind...

480
00:37:26,482 --> 00:37:27,916
"my heart...

481
00:37:30,252 --> 00:37:33,622
"they are made in such a way...

482
00:37:36,258 --> 00:37:40,429
"that I cannot accept it.
No! No! No!"

483
00:37:49,538 --> 00:37:54,309
I murmured something, that...
"It is a shock to me."

484
00:37:56,845 --> 00:37:59,648
He began amenities.

485
00:37:59,748 --> 00:38:03,852
Eventually, he did ask me
a few friendly questions.

486
00:38:03,952 --> 00:38:07,322
<i>Did he tell you,
"I know the human soul"?</i>

487
00:38:07,422 --> 00:38:09,591
Yes. "I am a judge of men.

488
00:38:10,959 --> 00:38:14,997
"I know humanity. I know men.

489
00:38:18,367 --> 00:38:20,936
"Impossible. No! No!"

490
00:38:23,372 --> 00:38:24,973
Total negation.

491
00:38:26,041 --> 00:38:28,377
Now, now...

492
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:33,949
Was he sincere?

493
00:38:34,049 --> 00:38:36,385
<i>That's my question.
What is the meaning of...?</i>

494
00:38:36,485 --> 00:38:40,022
Was it an act? A theatrical act?

495
00:38:41,890 --> 00:38:44,359
What could I do?

496
00:38:45,561 --> 00:38:48,530
How do you argue
with Justice Frankfurter?

497
00:38:48,630 --> 00:38:54,002
Ciechanowski tells me
he's a powerful man.

498
00:38:54,102 --> 00:38:55,804
As a matter of fact...

499
00:38:55,904 --> 00:38:58,941
<i>But he was even a key figure
in the Jewish community.</i>

500
00:38:59,041 --> 00:39:01,577
<i>- He was the centre of power there too.</i>
- He asked me...

501
00:39:01,677 --> 00:39:05,848
"Mr Karski,
do you know who I am?"

502
00:39:05,948 --> 00:39:08,083
So then I said, "Yes, sir.

503
00:39:08,383 --> 00:39:13,055
"You are associate justice
of the Supreme Court."

504
00:39:14,356 --> 00:39:16,658
And then I cracked a little...

505
00:39:17,993 --> 00:39:25,067
"My ambassador also told me
that you are a very important man."

506
00:39:25,367 --> 00:39:31,006
I remember this, Justice Frankfurter
looks at Ciechanowski...

507
00:39:33,876 --> 00:39:37,446
Then he introduces himself.

508
00:39:37,546 --> 00:39:40,916
<i>And what is the meaning of this now,
according to you?</i>

509
00:39:41,016 --> 00:39:44,887
<i>"I don't believe you."
What didn't he believe?</i>

510
00:39:44,987 --> 00:39:47,389
I think he believed me, of course.

511
00:39:49,124 --> 00:39:54,696
I have no doubt he did his best,
whatever he could have done.

512
00:39:56,665 --> 00:40:01,136
He took it for granted
I was going back to Poland.

513
00:40:01,436 --> 00:40:03,972
Probably he wanted to show me...

514
00:40:06,108 --> 00:40:08,810
...yes, that the world is unprepared.

515
00:40:08,911 --> 00:40:13,482
This is an unprecedented problem.
This is a horrible problem.

516
00:40:13,949 --> 00:40:19,988
<i>Generally speaking, when the Jews
in Warsaw said that their problem,</i>

517
00:40:20,088 --> 00:40:25,627
<i>meaning their destruction, couldn't be
handled in a purely military manner,</i>

518
00:40:25,727 --> 00:40:27,896
<i>that one had to find something else,</i>

519
00:40:27,996 --> 00:40:31,433
<i>did these people,
these specific people, these Jews,</i>

520
00:40:31,533 --> 00:40:33,769
<i>did they understand this or not?</i>

521
00:40:33,869 --> 00:40:36,038
They did. I am sure they did...

522
00:40:36,138 --> 00:40:39,708
<i>Or was their ideology the same:
rescue through victory?</i>

523
00:40:39,808 --> 00:40:43,645
No, no, no.
They did understand this problem.

524
00:40:43,745 --> 00:40:47,683
They sympathised with the Polish Jews.

525
00:40:47,783 --> 00:40:50,852
Something has to be done
in this respect.

526
00:40:52,220 --> 00:40:56,024
They will do their best,
but this would end...

527
00:40:56,124 --> 00:41:02,597
<i>Did you have the feeling that
they understood the fantastic emergency</i>

528
00:41:02,698 --> 00:41:05,567
<i>that every day was too late?</i>

529
00:41:11,573 --> 00:41:14,910
<i>Because this is what
you were in charge of conveying.</i>

530
00:41:15,010 --> 00:41:17,813
I think they did not.

531
00:41:17,913 --> 00:41:20,248
<i>- You think they did not?</i>
- They did not.

532
00:41:21,783 --> 00:41:25,654
It was a serious problem,
a tragic problem.

533
00:41:25,754 --> 00:41:27,889
"We are doing our best.

534
00:41:27,990 --> 00:41:30,826
"So much can be done.

535
00:41:30,926 --> 00:41:33,228
"The rest cannot be done.

536
00:41:34,896 --> 00:41:38,633
"We are doing whatever we can do
for this problem."

537
00:41:38,734 --> 00:41:42,671
Rather, from the Jewish leaders...

538
00:41:42,771 --> 00:41:45,907
Rather, I was getting
this kind of reaction.

539
00:41:46,008 --> 00:41:52,214
And then Jewish leaders all,
most of them were interested.

540
00:41:52,514 --> 00:41:55,951
"Well, how to do it?"
This, every day. Help.

541
00:41:56,651 --> 00:41:59,554
Now, the question could be asked...

542
00:42:00,555 --> 00:42:03,892
And as a matter of fact,
at various stages of this film,

543
00:42:03,992 --> 00:42:05,961
this question emerged.

544
00:42:09,765 --> 00:42:12,634
Is there any comparison

545
00:42:12,734 --> 00:42:16,872
between what happened
to the European Jews

546
00:42:16,972 --> 00:42:20,275
during the Second World War?

547
00:42:20,575 --> 00:42:23,278
Could it be compared

548
00:42:23,578 --> 00:42:28,016
to any happening in the past history?

549
00:42:29,284 --> 00:42:34,122
Whatever I know about history...
totally unique.

550
00:42:35,991 --> 00:42:39,294
It was a problem in itself,

551
00:42:39,594 --> 00:42:42,297
unprecedented historically.

552
00:42:43,765 --> 00:42:49,838
Humanity...
One could say healthy humanity,

553
00:42:49,938 --> 00:42:52,574
rational humanity,

554
00:42:53,341 --> 00:42:58,713
which did not see it
with their own eyes,

555
00:42:58,814 --> 00:43:01,917
were not actually there,

556
00:43:04,252 --> 00:43:07,189
they had no precedent to compare it.

557
00:43:10,025 --> 00:43:12,661
As you know, I mentioned this...

558
00:43:14,663 --> 00:43:16,865
...35 years passed.

559
00:43:16,965 --> 00:43:20,235
I have been conditioned
by the American environment.

560
00:43:21,603 --> 00:43:27,309
Now, naturally, in my mind,
I know it was true.

561
00:43:29,611 --> 00:43:31,880
I cannot handle it.

562
00:43:34,683 --> 00:43:38,887
What I saw, in this respect,

563
00:43:39,955 --> 00:43:42,257
Jewish extermination,

564
00:43:43,959 --> 00:43:46,895
is incomprehensible for me.

565
00:43:46,995 --> 00:43:48,797
I cannot handle it.

566
00:43:48,897 --> 00:43:53,235
I can handle perfectly well
the Polish problem.

567
00:43:55,737 --> 00:43:58,073
I discuss it in my classes.

568
00:43:58,173 --> 00:44:02,878
Czech, Serb, Russian.

569
00:44:03,879 --> 00:44:06,114
I understand, I comprehend.

570
00:44:06,214 --> 00:44:10,986
I could speak about it calmly,
rationally.

571
00:44:12,154 --> 00:44:14,089
History is cruel

572
00:44:16,024 --> 00:44:18,994
to many nations,
to many individuals.

573
00:44:19,094 --> 00:44:22,330
I ran away.

574
00:44:23,832 --> 00:44:29,704
I tried to eliminate what I saw
as far as the Jews were concerned.

575
00:44:29,804 --> 00:44:37,879
Not only did history not see
such an event before,

576
00:44:40,715 --> 00:44:44,386
nothing happened since then
which could be compared.

577
00:44:45,954 --> 00:44:48,456
Of course, again, history is cruel.

578
00:44:48,757 --> 00:44:52,093
Nations fight, individuals hate,

579
00:44:52,194 --> 00:44:54,796
political considerations
enter the picture.

580
00:44:54,896 --> 00:44:57,999
Conquest, torture, prison,

581
00:44:58,099 --> 00:45:01,403
collective responsibility, wars,

582
00:45:01,703 --> 00:45:03,371
victorious wars,

583
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:07,976
defeat in the wars.

584
00:45:08,076 --> 00:45:10,478
We see it now.

585
00:45:10,779 --> 00:45:13,248
We look around the world.
We have it.

586
00:45:15,217 --> 00:45:18,353
<i>I don't know how to put this question,</i>

587
00:45:18,453 --> 00:45:21,256
<i>because it's difficult to formulate.</i>

588
00:45:22,991 --> 00:45:27,128
<i>What is the meaning of Belzec,
of Treblinka,</i>

589
00:45:27,229 --> 00:45:30,465
<i>seen from Washington
or from New York?</i>

590
00:45:30,765 --> 00:45:33,401
<i>At that time?</i>

591
00:45:33,501 --> 00:45:35,971
<i>Or from London?</i>

592
00:45:37,272 --> 00:45:39,341
<i>For yourself, for instance,</i>

593
00:45:39,441 --> 00:45:43,812
<i>when you were reporting,
reporting, reporting every day,</i>

594
00:45:43,912 --> 00:45:46,448
<i>like a machine as you said,</i>

595
00:45:46,748 --> 00:45:51,086
<i>did you remember Warsaw
when you were here in Washington?</i>

596
00:45:56,024 --> 00:45:57,325
Yes.

597
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:04,032
Of course, not in the way
I remember it now, as I mentioned.

598
00:46:04,132 --> 00:46:06,201
Now I am much weaker emotionally,

599
00:46:06,301 --> 00:46:10,438
so I break down, I avoid it.

600
00:46:10,538 --> 00:46:13,241
At that time, yes, I was a machine.

601
00:46:14,042 --> 00:46:15,543
I was reporting.

602
00:46:15,844 --> 00:46:18,480
<i>But how do you judge the people...</i>

603
00:46:20,982 --> 00:46:26,554
<i>...who, how you said, didn't grasp
the real meaning of what it was?</i>

604
00:46:26,855 --> 00:46:30,959
<i>Is it possible to grasp
the destruction of the Jews</i>

605
00:46:31,059 --> 00:46:35,330
<i>when one lives in Washington,
completely another world?</i>

606
00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:38,199
- At that time?
<i>- Yes.</i>

607
00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:40,402
Probably not.

608
00:46:41,870 --> 00:46:43,538
Probably not.

609
00:46:44,906 --> 00:46:49,244
It might have been possible,

610
00:46:49,344 --> 00:46:55,350
if every one of those individuals
actually was there.

611
00:46:56,551 --> 00:47:01,956
Because now, all of us,
we are intelligent people.

612
00:47:02,057 --> 00:47:03,992
It was unprecedented.

613
00:47:05,460 --> 00:47:10,398
These kind of things
really never happened.

614
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,603
For a normal human being,

615
00:47:15,904 --> 00:47:17,505
educated,

616
00:47:17,605 --> 00:47:21,576
having political responsibility,
a leader...

617
00:47:23,445 --> 00:47:25,347
All of us, we know,

618
00:47:25,447 --> 00:47:30,051
our brain, our concepts,

619
00:47:30,151 --> 00:47:35,290
can operate only within certain limits.

620
00:47:35,390 --> 00:47:39,861
Mainly what the environment puts...

621
00:47:39,961 --> 00:47:42,597
books, knowledge, information,

622
00:47:42,897 --> 00:47:45,200
puts into our brains.

623
00:47:45,300 --> 00:47:47,302
At a certain point...

624
00:47:49,571 --> 00:47:56,010
...probably our brains are not
able to grasp certain things.